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	<title>Comments on: Death of the post-WWII geopolitical regime, III &#8212; death by debt</title>
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	<description>A discussion of geopolitics, broadly defined, from an American's perspective.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 04:56:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Fabius Maximus</title>
		<link>http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/death-debt/#comment-531</link>
		<dc:creator>Fabius Maximus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:06:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/death-debt/#comment-531</guid>
		<description>That's an interesting point.  Who can say what Bryan would think?  The bi-metallic movement, which he endorese, was an effort to reverse the Fourth Coinage Act of 1873, which moved the US from a gold/silver standard to a gold-only standard.

In modern terms -- which few would have understood in 1896 -- the question was what level of monetary growth was necessary for the rapidly growing American economy.  Bankers wanted deflation, which increased the real value of their assets (loans).  Debtors, esp farmers, wanted inflation.  The bankers won, and we got a series of brutal depressions until WWI -- an example of "be careful what you ask for."

My guess is that Bryan would not support measures designed to stiff our creditors.  He wanted a fair monetary system that was not tilted toward creditors.  We already have that, borrowing at low rates on easy terms to a degree probably never seen in the history of the world.  The current debate, as seen above, is about how we can avoid paying back what we fecklessly borrowed.  I think Bryan would greatly resent comparing our borrowing to support lavish consumption with that of 19th C farmers trying to support families in the harsh conditions of the American mid-west.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s an interesting point.  Who can say what Bryan would think?  The bi-metallic movement, which he endorese, was an effort to reverse the Fourth Coinage Act of 1873, which moved the US from a gold/silver standard to a gold-only standard.</p>
<p>In modern terms &#8212; which few would have understood in 1896 &#8212; the question was what level of monetary growth was necessary for the rapidly growing American economy.  Bankers wanted deflation, which increased the real value of their assets (loans).  Debtors, esp farmers, wanted inflation.  The bankers won, and we got a series of brutal depressions until WWI &#8212; an example of &#8220;be careful what you ask for.&#8221;</p>
<p>My guess is that Bryan would not support measures designed to stiff our creditors.  He wanted a fair monetary system that was not tilted toward creditors.  We already have that, borrowing at low rates on easy terms to a degree probably never seen in the history of the world.  The current debate, as seen above, is about how we can avoid paying back what we fecklessly borrowed.  I think Bryan would greatly resent comparing our borrowing to support lavish consumption with that of 19th C farmers trying to support families in the harsh conditions of the American mid-west.</p>
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		<title>By: dckinder</title>
		<link>http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/death-debt/#comment-524</link>
		<dc:creator>dckinder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 05:48:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/death-debt/#comment-524</guid>
		<description>The Progressive Movement, which Bryan co-opted in 1896, sought ( among other things ) to relieve farmers' debt by putting the United States on the silver rather than the gold standard, thereby inflating the currency.  There was quite a lot of rhetoric associated with the 1896 election about whether or not meeting debts with silver or gold money was the way to go.  Suffice to say that your position sounds like McKinley's while Bryan and his cohorts would have disputed you vigorously.

Update:  My apologies. It was, of course the Populist and not the Progressive Movement that Bryan co-opted in 1896. A late night typo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Progressive Movement, which Bryan co-opted in 1896, sought ( among other things ) to relieve farmers&#8217; debt by putting the United States on the silver rather than the gold standard, thereby inflating the currency.  There was quite a lot of rhetoric associated with the 1896 election about whether or not meeting debts with silver or gold money was the way to go.  Suffice to say that your position sounds like McKinley&#8217;s while Bryan and his cohorts would have disputed you vigorously.</p>
<p>Update:  My apologies. It was, of course the Populist and not the Progressive Movement that Bryan co-opted in 1896. A late night typo.</p>
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		<title>By: Fabius Maximus</title>
		<link>http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/death-debt/#comment-521</link>
		<dc:creator>Fabius Maximus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:32:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Why would Bryan have disagreed that "America was an attempt to rise above that."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why would Bryan have disagreed that &#8220;America was an attempt to rise above that.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: dckinder</title>
		<link>http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/death-debt/#comment-518</link>
		<dc:creator>dckinder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:37:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/death-debt/#comment-518</guid>
		<description>"America was an attempt to rise above that. "
William Jennings Bryan would have disagreed with you on that.

"A typical recession is a 1.5% drop, so going cold-turkey on borrowing would mean a very severe downturn. I suspect this is far more likely to result from foreigners taking away America’s national VISA card than us deciding to stop spending like drunks."
We may be closer to this than most think:  &lt;a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/09/business/worldbusiness/09cnd-yuan.html?_r=1&#38;ref=business&#38;oref=slogin" rel="nofollow"&gt;Fighting Inflation, China Freezes Energy Prices&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;America was an attempt to rise above that. &#8221;<br />
William Jennings Bryan would have disagreed with you on that.</p>
<p>&#8220;A typical recession is a 1.5% drop, so going cold-turkey on borrowing would mean a very severe downturn. I suspect this is far more likely to result from foreigners taking away America’s national VISA card than us deciding to stop spending like drunks.&#8221;<br />
We may be closer to this than most think:  <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/09/business/worldbusiness/09cnd-yuan.html?_r=1&amp;ref=business&amp;oref=slogin" rel="nofollow">Fighting Inflation, China Freezes Energy Prices</a></p>
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		<title>By: Fabius Maximus</title>
		<link>http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/death-debt/#comment-513</link>
		<dc:creator>Fabius Maximus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2008 15:08:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/death-debt/#comment-513</guid>
		<description>Why is this a "radical thought"?  Solving problems by stealing, defaulting on debts, and such are the norms of history.  America was an attempt to rise above that.  We can "default and run off laughing", leaving behind the dreams and work of Americans before us who hoped for better.  All those who looked to us for inspiration and leadership would learn that it was all a lie, or that somewhere along the line America's blood became thin and weak.

On an operational note, we borrow the stupendous sum of roughly 5% of our national income from foreigners.  A typical recession is a 1.5% drop, so going cold-turkey on borrowing would mean a very severe downturn.  I suspect this is far more likely to result from foreigners taking away America's national VISA card than us deciding to stop spending like drunks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why is this a &#8220;radical thought&#8221;?  Solving problems by stealing, defaulting on debts, and such are the norms of history.  America was an attempt to rise above that.  We can &#8220;default and run off laughing&#8221;, leaving behind the dreams and work of Americans before us who hoped for better.  All those who looked to us for inspiration and leadership would learn that it was all a lie, or that somewhere along the line America&#8217;s blood became thin and weak.</p>
<p>On an operational note, we borrow the stupendous sum of roughly 5% of our national income from foreigners.  A typical recession is a 1.5% drop, so going cold-turkey on borrowing would mean a very severe downturn.  I suspect this is far more likely to result from foreigners taking away America&#8217;s national VISA card than us deciding to stop spending like drunks.</p>
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		<title>By: dckinder</title>
		<link>http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/death-debt/#comment-512</link>
		<dc:creator>dckinder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2008 11:15:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/death-debt/#comment-512</guid>
		<description>Radical thought with no obvious answer:  None of this would matter if our circumstances were such that we no longer needed credit.  We could then simply repudiate and run off laughing while our creditors, in the words of an old professor of mine would "go wee wee all the way home."  

The point of making such a radical thought is not, in itself, to provide a solution.  Rather it is to stimulate creative new approaches.  So how do we ( and by "we" I do not necessarily mean the federal government but rather each of us, all of us, or any subset thereof in any possible arrangement ) adjust our affairs so our credit rating no longer matters so much?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Radical thought with no obvious answer:  None of this would matter if our circumstances were such that we no longer needed credit.  We could then simply repudiate and run off laughing while our creditors, in the words of an old professor of mine would &#8220;go wee wee all the way home.&#8221;  </p>
<p>The point of making such a radical thought is not, in itself, to provide a solution.  Rather it is to stimulate creative new approaches.  So how do we ( and by &#8220;we&#8221; I do not necessarily mean the federal government but rather each of us, all of us, or any subset thereof in any possible arrangement ) adjust our affairs so our credit rating no longer matters so much?</p>
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		<title>By: Cathryn Mataga</title>
		<link>http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/death-debt/#comment-511</link>
		<dc:creator>Cathryn Mataga</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2008 05:44:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/death-debt/#comment-511</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;"Monetary stimulus - printing money, lowering interest rates - risks sparking a currency crisis, perhaps ending the US dollar’s reign as the world’s reserve currency. The consequences of this could be calamitous, as the trillions of dollars held aboard as a store of value get sent home if the dollar becomes just another fiat currency."&lt;/em&gt;

Yeah, our leading export these days is the dollar.  China sends us stuff, we send back dollars (and bonds, etc.)  As long as those dollar-things are kept as reserves the big ball keeps rolling.  While I don't believe the world is dumping the dollar as a reserve currency, I've seen many stories that nations are going to the Dollar/EU mix.  I'm thinking what's changing is that in the past we benefited from a monopoly of the dollar as a reserve currency and now there's competition.  Nations can smoosh the percentage slider either way from Dollar or EU, and in the new environment the USA needs to take care to make sure the dollar is competitive as a reserve currency -- as usual, we won't start paying attention to this until it becomes a disaster.

&lt;em&gt;"We cannot do the same thing for America, mailing the keys to our foreign creditors - making it their problem. But we can default, or inflate the debts away to oblivion. Our creditors trusted enough in America to lend to us without collateral and in our own currency.  Were they wise to do so?"&lt;/em&gt;

The dollar is now falling relative to other currencies, so even if it doesn't look like inflation here, we are already effectively inflating the debts away from the perspective of guys overseas who own US bonds.  The Ottoman story explained the consequences of this pretty well.  Owning bonds in a falling currency doesn't look like such a great bet.  To preserve value, those guys are going to want buy income producing properties, American companies, land and buildings -- the Citibank deal, for example.

As long as there's something to buy here with the dollars the party can continue a little longer, but eventually what happens is they simply own everything.   We become serfs to foreign powers.  We rent homes owned by them; we work at companies owned by them.   Our taxes are used to pay interest that goes to fund projects in their countries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>&#8220;Monetary stimulus - printing money, lowering interest rates - risks sparking a currency crisis, perhaps ending the US dollar’s reign as the world’s reserve currency. The consequences of this could be calamitous, as the trillions of dollars held aboard as a store of value get sent home if the dollar becomes just another fiat currency.&#8221;</em></p>
<p>Yeah, our leading export these days is the dollar.  China sends us stuff, we send back dollars (and bonds, etc.)  As long as those dollar-things are kept as reserves the big ball keeps rolling.  While I don&#8217;t believe the world is dumping the dollar as a reserve currency, I&#8217;ve seen many stories that nations are going to the Dollar/EU mix.  I&#8217;m thinking what&#8217;s changing is that in the past we benefited from a monopoly of the dollar as a reserve currency and now there&#8217;s competition.  Nations can smoosh the percentage slider either way from Dollar or EU, and in the new environment the USA needs to take care to make sure the dollar is competitive as a reserve currency &#8212; as usual, we won&#8217;t start paying attention to this until it becomes a disaster.</p>
<p><em>&#8220;We cannot do the same thing for America, mailing the keys to our foreign creditors - making it their problem. But we can default, or inflate the debts away to oblivion. Our creditors trusted enough in America to lend to us without collateral and in our own currency.  Were they wise to do so?&#8221;</em></p>
<p>The dollar is now falling relative to other currencies, so even if it doesn&#8217;t look like inflation here, we are already effectively inflating the debts away from the perspective of guys overseas who own US bonds.  The Ottoman story explained the consequences of this pretty well.  Owning bonds in a falling currency doesn&#8217;t look like such a great bet.  To preserve value, those guys are going to want buy income producing properties, American companies, land and buildings &#8212; the Citibank deal, for example.</p>
<p>As long as there&#8217;s something to buy here with the dollars the party can continue a little longer, but eventually what happens is they simply own everything.   We become serfs to foreign powers.  We rent homes owned by them; we work at companies owned by them.   Our taxes are used to pay interest that goes to fund projects in their countries.</p>
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		<title>By: Fabius Maximus</title>
		<link>http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/death-debt/#comment-510</link>
		<dc:creator>Fabius Maximus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2008 02:41:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/death-debt/#comment-510</guid>
		<description>Superficial nonsense.  Stratfor provides excellent geopolitical analysis, but their economic views are somewhat less useful than those of the Economist, whose motto is apparently "Always either interesting OR correct, but never both".  The US dollar was the "true foundation" in 1970, and has been slowly -- in fits and starts -- becoming ever less so.  Over the last few years this evolution has accellerated, albeit still slow as befits changes in such giant forces.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Superficial nonsense.  Stratfor provides excellent geopolitical analysis, but their economic views are somewhat less useful than those of the Economist, whose motto is apparently &#8220;Always either interesting OR correct, but never both&#8221;.  The US dollar was the &#8220;true foundation&#8221; in 1970, and has been slowly &#8212; in fits and starts &#8212; becoming ever less so.  Over the last few years this evolution has accellerated, albeit still slow as befits changes in such giant forces.</p>
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		<title>By: a517dogg</title>
		<link>http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/death-debt/#comment-509</link>
		<dc:creator>a517dogg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2008 01:36:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/death-debt/#comment-509</guid>
		<description>From a Stratfor email looking at 2008 trends:

"Quietly developing in the background, the global economy is undergoing a no less dramatic transformation. While we expect oil prices to retreat somewhat in 2008 after years of surges, their sustained strength continues to shove a great deal of cash into the hands of the world’s oil exporters — cash that these countries cannot process internally and that therefore will either be stored in dollars or invested in the only country with deep enough capital pools to handle it: the United States. Add in the torrent of exports from the Asian states, which generates nearly identical cash-management problems, and the result is a deep dollarization of the global system even as the U.S. dollar gives ground. The talk on the financial pages will be of dollar (implying American) weakness, even as the currency steadily shifts from the one of first resort to the true foundation of the entire system."

Thoughts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From a Stratfor email looking at 2008 trends:</p>
<p>&#8220;Quietly developing in the background, the global economy is undergoing a no less dramatic transformation. While we expect oil prices to retreat somewhat in 2008 after years of surges, their sustained strength continues to shove a great deal of cash into the hands of the world’s oil exporters — cash that these countries cannot process internally and that therefore will either be stored in dollars or invested in the only country with deep enough capital pools to handle it: the United States. Add in the torrent of exports from the Asian states, which generates nearly identical cash-management problems, and the result is a deep dollarization of the global system even as the U.S. dollar gives ground. The talk on the financial pages will be of dollar (implying American) weakness, even as the currency steadily shifts from the one of first resort to the true foundation of the entire system.&#8221;</p>
<p>Thoughts?</p>
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		<title>By: Fabius Maximus</title>
		<link>http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/death-debt/#comment-502</link>
		<dc:creator>Fabius Maximus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 05:38:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/death-debt/#comment-502</guid>
		<description>There are many potential problems, esp as at the regime-end it looks like a large knot of many strands of twine.  This just examines one such, and does not assume the non-existance of other problems.

I see China and the US as two drunks leaning on each another.  Can either stand alone?  If one falls, does the other also?  Both systems are deeply flawed, albeit in different -- perhaps opposite - ways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are many potential problems, esp as at the regime-end it looks like a large knot of many strands of twine.  This just examines one such, and does not assume the non-existance of other problems.</p>
<p>I see China and the US as two drunks leaning on each another.  Can either stand alone?  If one falls, does the other also?  Both systems are deeply flawed, albeit in different &#8212; perhaps opposite - ways.</p>
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