This will be one of the greatest social science experiments ever conducted. After WWII nations tested free markets vs. government-dominated systems. Europe, North America, and East Asia using variants of the former. The red block, Africa, and Latin America using variants of the latter. The results were clear, and the world changed.
Now we’re testing male-dominated systems vs. female-dominated systems. The result might change the world, in ways impossible to foresee. This post provides information about the issue. My thoughts about this appear in A better answer to “why women outperform men in college?”
Links to other posts about America’s education system appear at the end.
A summary of the situation
(A) From “Women Now Dominate Higher Education at Every Degree Level; The Female-Male Degree Gap Grows“, Mark Perry (Professor of Economics, U of Michigan), at his blog Carpe Diem, 2 June 2009

(B) From Brenda Turner, Oregon Employment Dept, 20 April 2009:
At age 21, women are more likely to be enrolled in college than men, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics‘ National Longitudinal Survey of Youth. Each year over a 10-year period, this survey interviewed about 9,000 young men and women who were born during the years 1980 to 1984. Respondents were ages 12 to 17 when first interviewed in 1997, and ages 21 to 27 when interviewed for the tenth time in 2006-2007.
During the October when they were age 21, nearly half (46 percent) of women were attending college compared with 36% of men. This difference in college-enrollment rates stems from three factors:
- Women were more likely to have graduated from high school;
- among high school graduates, women were more likely to attend college; and
- once enrolled in college, women were less likely than men to leave college between school years.
Contents
- “At Colleges, Women Are Leaving Men in the Dust“, New York Times, 9 July 2006
- “Why Do Women Outnumber Men in College?“, Digest of the National Bureau of Economic Research, January 2007
- “Projections of Education Statistics to 2016“, Department of Education, December 2007
- The Natural Superiority of Women, Ashley Montagu (1999)
- “The Coming American Matriarchy“, Jonathan Rauch, National Journal, 11 January 2008
- Brief analysis from around the Internet
- Books and articles with more about this
- Afterword
(1) “At Colleges, Women Are Leaving Men in the Dust“, New York Times, 9 July 2006 — Excerpt:
A quarter-century after women became the majority on college campuses, men are trailing them in more than just enrollment. Department of Education statistics show that men, whatever their race or socioeconomic group, are less likely than women to get bachelor’s degrees — and among those who do, fewer complete their degrees in four or five years. Men also get worse grades than women.
And in two national studies, college men reported that they studied less and socialized more than their female classmates.
Small wonder, then, that at elite institutions like Harvard, small liberal arts colleges like Dickinson, huge public universities like the University of Wisconsin and U.C.L.A. and smaller ones like Florida Atlantic University, women are walking off with a disproportionate share of the honors degrees. Still, men now make up only 42% of the nation’s college students. And with sex discrimination fading and their job opportunities widening, women are coming on much stronger, often leapfrogging the men to the academic finish.
(2) “Why Do Women Outnumber Men in College?“, Digest of the National Bureau of Economic Research, January 2007 — Excerpt:
It is fairly well known that women today outnumber men in American colleges. In 2003, there were 1.35 females for every male who graduated from a four-year college and 1.3 females for every male undergraduate. That contrasts with 1960, when there were 1.6 males for every female graduating from a U.S. four-year college and 1.55 males for every female undergraduate. How come this switch? In T”he Homecoming of American College Women: The Reversal of the College Gender Gap” (NBER Working Paper No. 12139), authors Claudia Goldin, Lawrence Katz, and Ilyana Kuziemko offer some explanations for the change.
… One sign of rising expectations by women is shown in the fact that women earned 45.1% of bachelor’s degrees in business in 1984-5 and 50% by 2001-2, up from only 9.1% in 1970-1. Similar large increases in the female share of BAs also have occurred in the life sciences, physical sciences, and engineering since the early 1970s. It also could be that the rise in divorce rates since the 1960s and women’s greater responsibility for children have prompted women to see an investment in college as an insurance policy for their future financial lives.
Another aspect in the reversal of the college gender gap, rather than just its elimination, is the persistence of behavioral and developmental differences between males and females. Boys often mature more slowly than girls. In grades K-12, boys tend to have a higher incidence of behavioral problems (or lower level of non-cognitive skills) than girls. Girls spend more time doing homework than boys. These behavioral factors, after adjusting for family background, test scores, and high school achievement, can explain virtually the entire female advantage in getting into college for the high school graduating class of 1992, the authors figure. It allowed “girls to leapfrog over boys in the race to college.” Similarly, teenage boys, both in the early 1980s and late 1990s, had a higher (self-reported) incidence of arrests and school suspensions than teenage girls.
The “homecoming” in the authors’ title to their paper refers to the fact that by 1980 the gender balance in college had returned to its pre-1930 level in the United States, although the levels of college attendance were almost six times higher in 1980 than in the 1920s for both men and women. The number of male-to-female undergraduates was about at parity from 1900 to 1930. Many females were attending teacher-training colleges in those days.
The highpoint of gender imbalance in college attendance was reached in 1947, after the return of men from World War II then eligible for educational subsidies through the GI bills, when undergraduate men outnumbered women 2.3 to 1. Women’s relative numbers in college have increased ever since the 1950s, with a pause when many men went to college to avoid serving in the Vietnam War.
The decline in the male-to-female ratios of undergraduates in the past 35 years is real, and not primarily due to changes in the ethnic mix of the college-aged population or to the types of post-secondary institutions they attend, the authors assert. The female share of college students has expanded in all 17 member-nations of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development in recent decades, so much so that women now outnumber men in college in almost all rich nations.
(3) “Projections of Education Statistics to 2016“, Department of Education, December 2007 — A forecast for 2016; it’s almost certainly too conservative about this trend.
- 64% of Associates degrees will be awarded to women,
- 61% of Bachelor’s degrees,
- 63% of Master’s degrees,
- 58% of Doctoral degrees,
- 58% of Professional degrees
(4) The Natural Superiority of Women, Ashley Montagu (1999) — Publisher’s summary:
Among the central issues of the modern feminist movement, the debate over biology and culture over sex and gender, over genetics and gender roles has certainly been one of the most passionately contested. Making revolutionary arguments upon its first publication in 1953, The Natural Superiority of Women stands as one of the original feminist arguments against biological determinism.
An iconoclast, Montagu wielded his encyclopedic knowledge of physical anthropology in critique of the conventional wisdom of women as the “weaker sex,” showing how women’s biological, genetic, and physical makeup made her not only man’s equal, but his superior. Also a humanist, Montagu points to the emotional and social qualities typically ascribed to and devalued in women as being key to just social life and relationships. Subsequent editions of this book have provided additional support for Montagu’s arguments, examining both biological and social scientific data of the late 20th century. One of the most broadly renowned and read scholars of our century, Montagu brings out this fifth edition with up-to-date statistics and references.
(5) “The Coming American Matriarchy“, Jonathan Rauch, National Journal, 11 January 2008 — Excerpt:
A generation from now, the female lawyer with her male assistant will be the cliché. Look for women to outnumber men in many elite professions, and potentially in the political system that the professions feed. (The election of a female president is a question of when, not whether.) Women’s superior education will increase their earning power relative to men’s, and on average they will be marrying down, educationally speaking. A third of today’s college-bound 12-year-old girls can expect to “settle” for a mate without a university diploma. But women will not stop wanting to be hands-on moms.
For families, this will pose a dilemma. Women will have a comparative advantage at both parenting and breadwinning. Many women will want to take time off for child-rearing, but the cost of keeping a college-educated mom at home while a high-school-educated dad works will be high, often prohibitive.
Look, then, for rising pressure on government to provide new parental subsidies and child care programs, and on employers to provide more flextime and home-office options — among various efforts to help women do it all. Look, too, for a cascading series of psychological and emotional adjustments as American society tilts, for the first time, toward matriarchy. What happens to male self-esteem when men are No. 2 (and not necessarily trying harder)? When more men work for women than the other way around?
… {Men} will not become mothers anytime soon, and they will not stop secreting testosterone. Men’s ambition will ensure ample male representation at the very top of the social order, where CEOs, senators, Nobelists, and software wunderkinds dwell. Women will not rule men.
But they will lead. Think about this: Not only do girls study harder and get better grades than boys; girls now take more high school math and science than do high school boys. If there is a “weaker sex,” it isn’t female.
(6) Reactions from around the Internet
(A) The Instapundit, 25 June 2002 — I believe he understates the situation, as this is even more true of grade school.
SEX DISCRIMINATION IN COLLEGE: 57% of degrees are going to women. There’s a lot of hand-wringing about why, but they miss the obvious: over the past 20 years there has been a concerted effort to make colleges male-unfriendly environments, with attacks on fraternities, with anti-male attitudes in many classes, with intrusive sexual-harassment rules that start with the assumption that men are evil predators, and so forth. Now men don’t find college as congenial a place. It’s a hostile environment, quite literally.
How come none of the experts quoted in this article has noticed that?
Update: He wrote about this in more detail in ”Where the Boys Aren’t“, TCS Daily, 27 September 2005 — Excerpt:
{I}t seems to me that there are three possible ways of looking at the growing higher-education gender imbalance.
One would be to treat it the way we treat other “underrepresentation” issues in higher education: By wondering what universities are doing wrong. … The remedy, in this view: Affirmative action for male candidates, re-education for faculty, campus “men’s centers” to match the womens’ centers that were created when women were an underrepresented group on campus (and which still remain today almost everywhere), and efforts to make curricula, dormitories, and recruiting more male-friendly… There seems little doubt that if any other group were suffering similar declines in college attendance, this is precisely the approach we’d be seeing, and some schools have already been trying this to some degree.
The second approach would be to shrug the problem off. Men aren’t going to college as much? Big deal. Maybe it’s because women are smarter, or better suited to such things.
(B) “Something else for Margaret Spellings“, blog of the American Council of Trustees and Alumni, 23 September 2005
A generation of young men is losing out in a very big way. But there is no real outrage as higher education becomes a feminized system. Indeed, the outrage is still running the other way–we hear continually about the marginalization of women in the academy, and the difficulties women students face. The question of why there are so few women in the hard sciences draws impassioned debate, urgent calls for equity, and lots and lots of money. But the question of why young men are disappearing from campus is not even being widely asked. And it certainly isn’t being studied systematically. It should be, and Margaret Spellings has the power to ensure that it is.
(C) “The Death of Macho“, Reihan Salam, Foreign Policy, 22 June 2009 – Based on a superfical, even false, analysis of the causes of the financial crisis. But very PC, very trendy. Hat tip to Zenpundit. Excerpt:
Manly men have been running the world forever. But the Great Recession is changing all that, and it will alter the course of history.
For years, the world has been witnessing a quiet but monumental shift of power from men to women. Today, the Great Recession has turned what was an evolutionary shift into a revolutionary one. The consequence will be not only a mortal blow to the macho men’s club called finance capitalism that got the world into the current economic catastrophe; it will be a collective crisis for millions and millions of working men around the globe.
(7) For more information on this subject
- The Decline of Males: The First Look at an Unexpected New World for Men and Women, Dr. Lionel Tiger (biological anthropologist)
- The War Against Boys: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men, Christina Hoff Sommers
- The Myth of Male Power, Warren Farrell
- Heterophobia: Sexual Harassment and the Future of Feminism, Daphne Patai
(8) Afterword
Please share your comments by posting below. Per the FM site’s Comment Policy, please make them brief (250 words max), civil, and relevant to this post. Or email me at fabmaximus at hotmail dot com (note the spam-protected spelling).
For information about this site see the About page, at the top of the right-side menu bar.
For more information
To read other articles about these things, see the FM reference page on the right side menu bar. Of esp relevance to this topic:
Posts about America’s education system:
- College education in America, another broken business model, 3 July 2009
- The secret about our universities (seldom even whispered among Professors), 5 July 2009
- Women dominating the ranks of college graduates – What’s the effect on America?, 7 July 2009
- Is a college education worth a million dollars?, 10 July 2009

So then, let us simply apply that time-tested maxim once again. Let our fathers sit down their sons as young adults late one night across the kitchen table as their young wards recite their discontents. Let the father take their hand kindly and reply: “Well, after all, you know – it’s a woman’s world.”
I have much more to say on this topic but will wait until tomorrow’s post.
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Fabius Maximus replies: What is your basis for saying that this is a “time-tested maxim”?
Comment by drsteph — 7 July 2009 @ 1:11 am
FM note: this comment makes an important point!
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From a German perspective: The same happened here in case of our high-schools: 1980 more boys were found to be suitable for Gymnasium (top tier high-school), now the girls clearly out-number them.
What also changed: The number of female teacher in primary schools, were the kids get their recommendation for high schools, increased dramatically. For many kids the high school is the place they see a male teacher the first time. And many boys in primary schools show now according to their (female) teachers bad behaviour and earn, therefore, bad marks and no recommendation for Gymnasium.
So my question, what is the percentage of female teachers in US high-schools and how has it developed since 1950?
Another aspect of changed female education in Germany: In contrast to men, women usually do not marry a partner with lower educational level, this leads in many cases to highly educated single (childless) females.
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Fabius Maximus replies: Agreed. Discussing this was beyond the scope of this post, but the disappearance of male teachers from grade school might be a major factor. From an National Education Association study (the link to the study no long works, but here’s a NEA factsheet citing it):
It’s a problem in the UK also: “Lack of male teachers hits boys’ grades“, The Independent, 13 September 2007.
Comment by Ulenspiegel — 7 July 2009 @ 6:49 am
I think the situation calls for a re-evaulation of maleness. It is odd to me that, at the same time as matters are shifting in the educational arena, there is also a resurgence of the stupider forms of machismo in the popular culture– a totally counterproductive response to reality. The supposedly “macho” whining and complaining of folks like Instapundit also strikes me as pointless.
If the big picture looks like women getting ahead and men pulling back, then it seems to me that we focus on dealing with that big picture. Men could stop clinging to machismo so much. Ulenspiegel’s point about women not wanting to ‘marry down’ educationally is a real problem, and maybe part of the answer is to somehow sweeten the deal for the women. How to accomplish this I don’t know. I tend to see the situation more as something to deal with, less as something to try to stop from happening.
Comment by atheist — 7 July 2009 @ 10:05 am
@atheist
Agreed, as long as the changes are a result of higher perfomance. However, if the changes are “only” a result of faulty filters, then I as father prefer structural changes, which in many cases could easily be implemented and are cost neutral.
Comment by Ulenspiegel — 7 July 2009 @ 12:01 pm
@ Ulenspiegel from #4: “if the changes are “only” a result of faulty filters, then I as father prefer structural changes”
I tend to think it is filters. Filters in the sense of attitudes, I mean. You say you prefer structural changes. May I ask what changes you envision?
Comment by atheist — 7 July 2009 @ 12:34 pm
Women get preference to get into competitive college programs. Affirmative Action is still policy in colleges where females are the majority.
That said, it also means more women will get stuck unemployed with unpayable student loans that they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. When I last heard only 19% of college graduates got jobs after the last graduations.
Males tend to be more concentrated in majors where there are jobs: Accounting, Engineering, Computers, etc.
The reality is the Somalian “Navy” and Taliban are taking on the combined forces of some of the most powerful nations on Earth and so far they are gaining ground. In other words, men in old fishing boats are defeating girls on aircraft carriers.
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Fabius Maximus replies: I don’t believe any of this is correct, other than the opening about “affirmative action”. Males are losing ground in every aspect of university life: every field, sports, academic performance. And there are very few women on US aircraft carriers.
Comment by Tibby — 7 July 2009 @ 1:48 pm
I have an ex wife and daughter who I helped to some of those degrees. My son and daughter both are gifted, and both studied physics. Daughter got a full ride scholarshp to her bachelors. Son is working his way. Legacy scholarship policy seems to favor women.
Comment by Don Meaker — 7 July 2009 @ 1:57 pm
“Ulenspiegel’s point about women not wanting to ‘marry down’ educationally is a real problem, and maybe part of the answer is to somehow sweeten the deal for the women. How to accomplish this I don’t know.”
I know we could have no fault divorces where the woman could leave at anytime, get primary custody of any children, get child support even if she makes more (which factoring out the time lost during the maternity process/recovery is generally equal to or better than men) or spousal support if no children are involved, and get at least half of all assets. Surely that would sweeten to pot for women to marry, right?
“I think the situation calls for a re-evaulation of maleness. It is odd to me that, at the same time as matters are shifting in the educational arena, there is also a resurgence of the stupider forms of machismo in the popular culture– a totally counterproductive response to reality. The supposedly “macho” whining and complaining of folks like Instapundit also strikes me as pointless.”
Yeah, if those neanderthal men would just become more like the superior women, then all would be right in the world. Let’s start our boys off right by drugging them via ritilian and giving them no male role models in the grade school time frame. After all, despite society being pro affirmative action toward under representative groups this is one under representative group that doesn’t deserve it.
Atheist, I am sure you will view that last paragraph as whining. Nothing is further from the truth. I really don’t have a dog in this hunt. I have made sure I can not be a father (so I don’t have to worry about the future of any boys I might sire), pretty damn sure I won’t ever get married (no children is not negotiable, but the M word is, somewhat negotiable), and I have just barely missed this wave (although I shudder at the lost souls behind me.)
Comment by Cannon Asesrb — 7 July 2009 @ 2:06 pm
Over the last 25 years men have slowly been maligned and marginalized. Starting out in grade school boys are not allowed to be boys. The teaching methods do not appeal to boys who crave “hands-on” learning and competition. In fact competition is discouraged in favor of the “everyone is a winner” mentality. No wonder by the time boys are of college age they want out. They have been told on many different levels that they are not wanted in academia. It’s not surprising that college educated women find it hard to find their equals in men. They wonder where all the “good” men are. They are where you left them girls. Now the next steps to further marginalize men is in full force. No fathers needed, thank-you. Women can have children by an anonymous donor. I worry much more for my son then I do my daughter that he will find his place in this world. Women have spent so much time overcomming gender obstacles with help from our benevolent government that some simple truths have been forgotten. Be careful what you wish for ladies, you just may get it.
Comment by JCC — 7 July 2009 @ 2:09 pm
well if we do what was done for women, to help men gain some ground in college, we could start charging women with crimes based on the worst stereotypes of their gender and automatically assume they are all guilty, then create speech codes to stifle their freedom of expression, and then create “men’s studies” classes which serve the purpose of denouncing the oppressive matriarchy
Comment by jso — 7 July 2009 @ 2:11 pm
@atheist in #3: “men could stop clinging to machismo so much”
Sure, let’s just have men stop being men. They can just all be metrosexuals, and everything will be fine. And let’s encourage all women to be super-educated high-risers confident of their own superiority to men and the old macho way of doing things. Then let’s all act bewildered when our society stops producing children and families. Who needs families? Who needs the social norms that have advanced humanity over thousands of years? What we really need is feminist professors telling young girls what’s good for them.
You and all your atheist buddies keep up the good work of destroying society from within as you deal with the “reality” that hyper-progressivism has created. The rest of us will deal with the actual reality that gender means something and that social norms didn’t just come about by accident. Thanks to our missionary position style, we’ll be here to pick up the pieces after you all flame out.
Comment by nonathiest — 7 July 2009 @ 2:21 pm
In some subjects like sports, math and physics I would form seperate classes for girls and boys in primary schools and high-schools; another aspect is a more equal distribution of male teachers in primary schools.
Still cost neutral but tricky in the German educational system: transfer of the good teachers from high schools (esp. Gymnasien) to primary schools, where the fate of kids is determined (at least in Germany), i.e. I would prefer a more Skandinavian model.
Mandatory free kindergarten and pre-schools in order to allow integration of kids from immigrant families, at least in cities with high percentage of non-German kids I would propose an all-day school, this costs of course, but 30% Turkish boys (many 3rd generation) without graduation from highschool are more expensive in the long run in a developed contry which offers only a small number of job for unskilled.
My wish as docent: Do not increase the number of students who attend university, more diplomas do not solve the problem, let’s better use the non-academic parts of the educational system, here Germany (still) has to offer a lot. For universities, I would introduce in more subjects a restriction on admission and small fees. My experiences from Austria shows that 1000-2000$ p.a. nicely reduce the number of uniterested students, but do not accumulate to a real burden after graduation.
Comment by Ulenspiegel — 7 July 2009 @ 2:27 pm
“Men’s studies” Heh. You know, there’s a reason its called history.
@6: Heard much from the Somalian pirates lately? Really, that situation was just the unintended consequences of disarming merchantmen. Let the frieghters have some rifles and maybe one crew-served weapon, and we’d never hear about pirates again.
@2: That’s a very interesting observation–and the probable outcome is simply that such over educated women will typically not reproduce, so we’ll all end up with a bunch more spinsters for a while. Sort of like the whole issue of the social security system. One way or another, the whole thing will be over by 2040, because the majority of the baby boomers will be dead.
The only constant in the universe is change. The wise adapt.
One more thing: This isn’t really about the feminization of men so much as it is about the masculization of women.
Comment by Eric Blair — 7 July 2009 @ 2:33 pm
A couple of things: The primary and secondary education system in the US is a failed institution. On average the poorest college students, primarily women, go into education. The boys, my son included, are lost souls by the time they reach middle school. Teacher unions have had a strong hand in this failure.
A good friend has been a faculty member in an MIT engineering department for many years. He has had to dumb down his class rigor to accommodate the present day students. They want to development of verbal skills not analytical skills. K-12 has given them no preparation for real academic rigor.
Government played a role in this failure. Graduate students used to be funded by the US defense department and the research work was theoretical and analytical. Now funding has gone over to the EPA and the research is observational rather than theoretical. Observational research is much less demanding than theoretical. The resulting graduates go into environmental fields and generally work to restrict the freedom of others (see spotted owl).
Comment by Claude Hopper — 7 July 2009 @ 2:38 pm
Ulenspiegel asks: “So my question, what is the percentage of female teachers in US high-schools and how has it developed since 1950?”
My K-12 schooling was in the 1960’s through 1972. As far as I can remember the only Male teacher I had during K-6 was a Physical Education instructor. All the others were Female.
During 7 & 8, which was referred to as “Junior High” where I was raised, I remember a ratio of … roughly … 50% Female to 50% Male instructors. The Men taught Mathematics, Chemistry, Physics and “Shop”. ( Shop Class, for those who wonder, dealt with Mechanical Drawing, Wood Working, Metal Working and Photography. ) The Women taught English, History, Social Studies, and Home Economics. Yes … I actually learned how to sew on a button in Jr. High!
Once I arrived at High School the ratio did change dramatically. As far as I can recall it was
at least 70% Male. Females taught Language Arts/Speech/English/Music/French, Spanish and Italian!. Males taught Mathematics/Sciences/History along with German and Russian.
The latest I can tell you about is 2000-2004 when my son was in High School. (His K-8 teachers were all female EXCEPT for Physical Education – a coach from the High School) I would guess at least 80% of the teachers were Female. The Males only seemed to teach Mathematics (about 60%-40%), Sciences (only 1 female out of 10 or 11 instructors) and Music – only the Chorale director my son’s Senior was Female.
Not sure that really answers your question Ulenspeigel as it is all anecdotal. But you surely do raise a very interesting point!
Comment by anon — 7 July 2009 @ 2:56 pm
The “boy problem” is international. The difference is, in other countries they are actually trying to address it. There are programs and studies going on in Britain, Australia, etc. But not here. Here, the entire topic is taboo.
The “boy problem” also starts very young. Richard Whitmire at his blog “Why boys fail” and with his upcoming book of the same name largely blames the push-down of the academic curriculum into kindergarten and on to young kids too young to handle it — especially boys. Girls will sit quietly and do the work, but a 5-year-old boy will not sit still for a phonics lesson, a writing assignment, or a math drill. But that is what they are being asked to do. As a consequence, boys fall behind right from the start, and are seen as troublesome in the classroom. Classrooms are designed for the calmer and more-controlled girls, they are considered the norm, and boys are seen as defective.
This is compounded by almost-exclusively female-taught classrooms, with every teacher having gone through the PC heaven of ed school. If after feminist-power schooling, they even marginally favor girls–or girls’ learning styles and classroom behavior–the effects spread out over the entire cohort, and accumulating year after year become devastating by the time a student has had 13 years of primary and secondary education.
Our son’s teacher actually uttered the words: “well, he’s a boy, and boys aren’t as good at writing.”
Comment by Ann — 7 July 2009 @ 3:03 pm
FM note: This comment misses the key point. Women are increasingly dominating in every professional degree program, and rapidly gaining in technical fields
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How many of those degrees are worth anything? It would be nice to know the break down. Are they just fluffy little “Liberal Arts” degrees? “Victimology” degrees? Are they degrees just design for females to get grades and scholarships to keep the whole fraud going?
Sounds like passive indoctrination into Marxist and feminist cant to me. As an employer, I can tell you that most degrees today outside of the hard sciences or engineering are almost worthless, and the level of of knowledge even in those areas is not what it once was. Hiring in those areas as I do, I often find the the females with these degrees rarely live up to their hype and are extremely arrogant. In my experience most do not make it past a few years, and those few that do have mostly mediocre careers. Society has wasted much money and effort here.
It also would be nice to see all this data bracketed against real accompaniment, and here i do not mean job titles–I mean contributions to civilization.
As for the job market, well the false and parasitical economy of the so called liberal Arts “knowledge worker” will have to come to an end fairly soon, no matter what Obama has to say about it. It is purely dependent on the public purse, and sooner or later this must run dry.
It may well be that those males that went out there and started learning real skills may be ahead of the game. “Advanced Degrees” in “Art History”, or “Political Science” or “Women’s Studies” may not be worth much very soon. Same for Law degrees. Watered down science or technology programs that allow the mediocre to think that they are other than that are not worth that much either.
Here is a story, I know of someone who had a daughter that was encouraged in math, went to high toned “women’s schools” got degrees and scholarships, and when she tried to really compete with the real top level mathematicians of her cadre (which of course were predominantly men) she shocking realized for the very first time that she had no real deep creative or analytic ability for mathematics at all, at least not at the level required and expected of her professionally. The whole establishment behind her was just pretending that the world was other than what it was just so they could crank out “female mathematicians”. She was used, wasted year of her life, and is now bitter about it. She is not involved in the field at all now.
She had just been hustled by the “Women’s movement”. That money and effort could have been better used all around.
Political correctness and squinting our eyes about meaningless degrees and dubious capacities and accomplishments will not much help us on the competitive world that we are going into. You can bet the Chinese do not do things this stupidly.
It will be curious how these women react in a few years when they have to bear the responsibility for all this nonsense, and that day will come. Citing feminist cant will not be of much use.
Comment by hattip — 7 July 2009 @ 3:21 pm
I think ya’ll are reading way too much psycho-babble in all of this. A college education is exponentially more expensive now than when I attended Michigan State(91-95) and by the time I was done, I realized it was(almost) a complete waste of money. A two year education from a community college would have gotten me 90% of my 4 year MSU education.
Perhaps men are realizing this? And, one thing that stuck me before I left was the complete absurdity of the overall experience. 4 year uni’s are another world, far removed from everyday real life. I wanted to work and achieve real things, not abstract platitudes like grades.
I’m a software developer, so I can still get a well paying job without a degree, but that’s changing.
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Fabius Maximus replies: This is factually incorrect. It is impossible to gain entry into most professions (e.g., law, medicine, become an officer in the armed forces) without a college degree. It is difficult to gain entry to an increasing number of fields without a degree, as they use this as a filtering device irrespective of its actual relevance to the job.
Comment by William — 7 July 2009 @ 3:27 pm
17: What hogwash. I am in my 50’s and that is just what we did back then, that is just a slander against boys. That has nothing to do with boys and everythng to do with incompetent (and often ideologically perverse) teachers
We had co-ed schools back then, and you know what? the curriculum was mach harder back then.
The females had a hard time keeping up by 3rd grade. This is just nonsense. Who built this civilization anyway?
Higher IQ is a statistical anomaly in females. The farther up you go the number of females decrease dramatically. Female IQ is cluster around a mean. There is a wider diffusion of male IQ, but were it does cluster around a mean, that mean is higher too.
When you have a feminist teaching boys, you will get this. Prove that this is a worls wide problem. I bet it only exist in the decadent, effeminate PC cultures of the West.
Comment by hattip — 7 July 2009 @ 3:30 pm
A note from the proprietor of the FM site
The comments are getting repetitive, esp the moral outrage. Please stick to the topic, which is the effect of this trend on America.
Discussion of reforms and cures is always appropriate, of course. But please focus on how to make it happen. Wishing for massive changes, perhaps resulting from the Blue Fairy’s help, is a waste of time.
Comment by Fabius Maximus — 7 July 2009 @ 3:35 pm
From #8
Cannon Asesrb, let me take a step back. Glenn “Instapundit” Reynolds said:
When I read that, I thought about my own time in college. We had multiculturalism seminars that one could take for a credit, and most people did take them. One of them was about date rape and it actually was pretty angering. The instructor really did seem to assume that boys just wanted to rape girls, and personally I found that insulting. I even remember getting into a verbal altercation with this instructor over it.
So, I can see where you are coming from with anger about having the worst assumed about you. But to me there are two other things. First, as angry as that seminar made me, and I can remember now how angry it made me, to be assumed a rapist on the basis on nothing, it really was only one seminar. It was not required, and even if you took it, it was over in a day. And the other four years had nothing really like that. So, I feel that Instapundit is really exaggerating when he says, “over the past 20 years there has been a concerted effort to make colleges male-unfriendly environments”. To be blunt, if some guy could not get pussy at the college I was at, it was probably not because of feminism, but because of something else.
The second thing I think about, and this might sound very boring or wonkish, but honestly women have a legitimate interest in their own personal security. And, from the statistics and facts that I have seen and read, it is no joke to say that women get abused by boyfreinds, get attacked by people they know. I don’t claim that it is all one way, I know there are women who abuse their boyfreinds too. But it seems to me that the bulk of the abuse goes the other way. And, if you take it as a given that girls should be able to choose relationships, as I do, then it becomes unescapable that one has to work to reduce the amount of violence against the women. And there is probably a better way than to accuse random men of being rapists, but such an educational course is the only way we have now.
In my opinion, Instapundit is not accepting either of these realities, and that is why I can’t agree with him. Do you see where I am coming from Cannon Asesrb?
Comment by atheist — 7 July 2009 @ 3:36 pm
I have few answers, just a few questions.
Regarding academic endeavors:
1. Considering the undergrad population as a whole, what are the distribution (%) trends of Liberal Arts (soft sciences) vs. Applied Arts (Hard sciences) program participation?
2. What is the concentrations male/female participation for each program?
3. What are the implications for US national economic competetivness in a global economic environment?
From the psycho/social point of view:
1. What are the effects of a ‘Role Model’ shift for both males and females in a competitive environment?
2. How will the resulting Role Model shifts comport with the more conservative (eastern?) culture models.
3. Is the daily minit-by-minit diminution of male roles depicted in western MSM advertising and entertainment content, a reflection of current social values or an overt prescription for intended social change.
And last: Will social conditioning supersede genetic propensities? I think not.
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Fabius Maximus replies: Why don’t you look up the answers and report back? I’m sure we’d like to see what you find!
Comment by J. D. Lindskog — 7 July 2009 @ 3:38 pm
FM note: this comment raises an important point!
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Labor economists are familiar with the fact that as women enter a given profession, a tipping point is reached and the job becomes “woman’s work” and men go away. Historic examples include secretary, actuary, and pharmaceutical sales (once called ‘detail men’).
College is just another ‘job’ that becomes a woman’s club and is avoided by men.
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Fabius Maximus replies: Agreed! Note, for example, the decline in status of doctors in the USSR. But college in the US (and more generally the west), is NOT a job. It has a gatekeeper function, the entryway to a large fraction of high income/status jobs. That trashes your last point. All professional and technical jobs will not drop in status and income, so that jobs like garbage collection and highway repair become the most desirable jobs in America.
Comment by Duncan Frissell — 7 July 2009 @ 3:40 pm
FM: Prove that. An please do not give me some doctored Left-wing “study”. I live in the real world and have to shoulder real P and L responsibility, and I do not belive you one bit.
My employees hae PHd. from the best schools int he world. I actively recruit from places like MIT, CalTech and IIT. Really prove that they are gaining in every field. What I see is it only applies to academia where in science and engineering they have created women’s ghettos where they are not held to the same standards of men. 30 years from now, all that they have “produced” will be laughed at.
I do not see it in my field. I see “female science degrees” But i do not see the performance in real world situations. I see a lot of coddled and arrogant mediocrities that cannot take the heat once they are really asked to compete with the best in the field.
Miss the point indeed. Read what I wrote. What nonsense. Do you do anything real for a living? It is you that miss the point, and you do this because you believe “studies” that are designed for ideological reasons and whose authors willingly distort the truth. Feminist propaganda about gaining in “every” field is not reality. Go to high level international symposia in math, or Physics or computer science and see with what you are dealing with there. Goodness, thy have to book “women’s sections” sot he poor dears will not get humiliated in public.
Check back in the real world a decade after that degree is issued and see what you get. You can even try 5 years. more than half have wuite and are out of the field. And I am talking about real jobs. not some sort of Academic “job”. I mean a bench scientist in a firm or aas an engineer.
You are just kidding yourself. I would like see a real break out, and i would also like to see a comparative analysis of curriculum. I do not buy it at all. When it is you daughter that gets used like this, or your son, then you will see who “gets it”. What silliness.
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Fabius Maximus replies: You do not believe that the proportion of women is increasing in almost every field in America — and in every professional field? If so, that’s bizarre, up there with flat earthers. Consult the census department and DOL data. For a start, see the US Government’s Women in the Labor Force: A Databook (2007 Edition). Perhaps the most telling datum is Table 25. Wives who earn more than their husbands. Was 26% in 2005 for marriages in which both work, up almost 1/2 from 1987. Will it rise to 36% by 2023 (in 14 years)?
No more rants here, please. It’s not that kind of site. Can you cite supporting data or articles for your beliefs?
Comment by hattip — 7 July 2009 @ 3:48 pm
In line with the decline of males on campuses and the rise of leftist PC atmosphere thereon, the quality of the university product has been declining steadily. Long time corporate trainers have had to constantly change to accommodate, dumb down and lengthen training cycles. More and more intelligent men are avoiding the PC university hassle altogether and the PC environment of the large corporation. They go into the military, trade schools, and/or start their own businesses. A liberal arts bachelor’s degree has become a ticket stamp with less than the value of a 1950’s high school diploma. It will get you a job at Starbucks, maybe.
Comment by toad — 7 July 2009 @ 3:51 pm
@Fabius,
I implied software developers can get well paying jobs without a degree, not any of the ones you listed. Regardless, while plenty of jobs require a degree, a lot don’t. Or at least not a 4 year degree. And you have to weigh what your earnings potential will be with a massive amount of debt vs. one without.
Now, that being said, men will certainly benefit from a good education, but I think that with the Internet and the wealth of information it brings, a lot of traditional routes are being bypassed. Admittedly, my perspective is skewed as I work with a large number of non-college educated small business owners who have simply worked their way to success, with only an associates degree( if that ) in hand.
Universities are overpriced and overrated and I think this contributes to an increasing number of people simply delaying or bypassing it altogether. Women are playing catch up to men professionaly and see a degree as a validation of their success and intelligence, hence I think they say ‘damn the consequences’ and go full steam ahead.
There is an article floating around somewhere from Business week that enumerated in good fashion why most people should bypass college. I’ll be damned if I can find it, though.
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Fabius Maximus replies: I do not understand what you are saying. My reply here seems quite clear, that college is the gateway to a very large and growing fraction of the high paying jobs in America. Your comment seems to ignore this fact.
Comment by William — 7 July 2009 @ 3:57 pm
And Fabius, if I may ask, what do you do for a living? Your posts have a somewhat scholarly and dry(no offense!) tone. Are you a think-tanker or university instructor?
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Fabius Maximus replies: Personalities don’t matter on this site. Look at the about page for more information.
Comment by William — 7 July 2009 @ 4:03 pm
Comment 14 supplement: I was talking with my MIT faculty friend last month about the lack of preparation for rigor in science and applied math. He said the best primary and secondary education system was in France. No high self esteem policy there; their academic rigor shows one early their capabilities resulting in less disappointment and frustration later in life. In essence, well adjusted citizens.
Comment by Claude Hopper — 7 July 2009 @ 4:23 pm
Fabius, I went through grade school in the 1960s and ’70s in the Southeastern U.S. Like some of the commenters above, my recollection is that the faculty was predominately female. However, I attended a number of schools (we moved a lot) and I don’t recall any of them being particularly feminized. So I’ve been scratching my head to figure out what the difference is.
One difference could be that, as far as I know, ed school wasn’t the militant feminist cesspool that it is now. So even though the teachers were mostly female, they weren’t getting fed the girl-centric teaching philosophy that they get now. However, I’m wondering about something else: if the presence of even a small number of males on the faculty has a disproportinate effect on the prevailing school culture. Thinking back, at every grade school I went through, there were at least two men in authority positions. Some had a few male teachers; some others had a male principal and one male teacher, and so forth. I consider it plausible that if a school had two men on the faculty, and then they were replaced by women, there would be a significant shift in the school’s prevailing culture, even though in percentage terms the composition of the faculty didn’t change very much. So a small decrease in the total number of male grade-school teachers nationwide could just hint at the fact that large cultural changes actually occurred at a number of schools. After all, it’s long been observed that when the first women enters a formerly all-male workplace, a big change in the office culture occurs — why wouldn’t the opposite be true also?
Comment by Cousin Dave — 7 July 2009 @ 4:26 pm
In 1991, I got screamed at “What’s wrong, didn’t like school?!” and kicked out of job interview for graduating college in 3 years with honors… now people like me (male) only get 40% of college degrees at all. Nice.
Comment by Anonymous — 7 July 2009 @ 4:44 pm
When you couple this with the AAUW’s “Behind the Pay Gap” (2007) study, you see that this is not necessarily a good thing. With Women being a majority in the “soft” majors, i.e. Education, Psychology, Social Services, and Humanities, and men being the majority in the “hard” majors, Engineering, Math, Physics. Are we going to get a society focused less on the hard sciences and thinking and more on the less industrial occupations and feeling?
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Fabius Maximus replies: This is a common view, and quite incorrect. The fraction of women in the “hard” majors is increasing rapidly.
In fact, much of the discussion about male-female differences on this thread is without scientific foundation. For a review of some studies about this: “Sex, Math and Scientific Achievement“, Scientific American, December 2007 — “Why do men dominate the fields of science, engineering and mathematics?” It also includes this note:
Comment by Al — 7 July 2009 @ 4:47 pm
The hubris of ‘advanced’ (read: decadent) societies throughout history knows no bounds. Each moves beyond achievements in literature, science and engineering to believe the world can be arranged according to the whim and caprice of imagination and fashion.
By all means, go on feminizing your men. But rest assured the West’s competitors, not to mention the inevitable barbarians who follow them, aren’t buying into such nonsense. And they WILL follow: As Mark Steyn wrote, permanence is the illusion of every age. Every past civilization believed its apex would endure.
Of course, this time ’round, thanks to the democratization of literacy and education, Western metrosexuals will be able to devise exquisite rationales for their cowardice and submission. Assuming anthropologists of the future unlock our digital archives, they’ll marvel at how the West bred the cultural equivalent of prison bitches for successive waves of conquerors. Apparently, there were not enough G.I. Jane’s to protect them.
Comment by Vinny Vidivici — 7 July 2009 @ 4:48 pm
#23 raises a very important point about certain jobs becoming “women’s work”. Interesting sideline, when exactly did accounting (i.e. former big-6 accounting) become “women’s work”? Cross reference when all the men went to the consulting side of all these firms (middle 1990’s) and the steam-rolling of the basic audit function that led to all the reported earnings gimmicks that never would have flown when accountants were men (tech bubble & current fiasco).
The question that it raises is will 3rd party certifications (ex. Cisco Certified, CPA, CFA) and appreticeships return or grow in response to the no longer sensical cost benefit of most college degrees? Especially in light of Ricci and the impending collapse of disparate impact? Sailer would say the benefit of the college racket is the freedom to test IQ (i.e. the SAT). Doesn’t Ricci weaken that monopoly? I doubt that you would go back to the days of A. Lincoln becoming a lawyer by his own reading, but could you not envision professions that become open to men who can prove they can study on their own without having to submit to multi-culti university junk?
Yes colleges have been a 1st level sorting mechanism, but a crude one at best that is getting its first serious look at what is behind the curtain, as they rasied the price in an attempt to extort too much from their role as gatekeeper. Cheaper and better gatekeepers can easily be imagined. The question is if they will be allowed to develop.
Comment by Mark — 7 July 2009 @ 6:28 pm
Just as the last post on education pointed out, a college degree is nothing but a marker for where you belong in the the class system. As men we will simply refuse to participate in it. I get invited to less cool parties but I also don’t have a mountain of debt. Big deal.
The big flaw in our education system is that how someone performs at 18 has nothing to do with how well they do at 35 and 50. At best it is an imperfect indicator of future performance.
Clearly women dominate advertising, marketing, the civil service, etc. They are starting to make gains elsewhere. But are women starting to gain parity as plumbers, electricians, licensed contractors, soldiers? As America makes the transition from rich superpower to ‘emerging nation,’ what jobs will be more important?
One day we will wake up and realize that we have more upper body strength than women do. Enjoy it while it lasts, ladies.
Comment by Captain Ramen — 7 July 2009 @ 6:35 pm
It will be interesting to see the day when government continues to more amply fund social programs–be that Medicare, child care, environmental concerns, education, etc.–and further raises taxes on high-earners, the majority of which, extrapolating from Fabius’s data, will be women. Considering the overwhelming young/single/female vote for liberal Democrats, including our president, I wonder whether those voters will enthusiastically embrace income “redistribution” when, in our brave new matriarchy, the income is their own.
Comment by leishman — 7 July 2009 @ 6:49 pm
Not sure if this has been considered or not – An article supporting the idea that gender of instructor impacts the performance of the students is here: “A Formula for Success“, Ray Fisman, Slate, 5 June 2009 — “Want more women to study science? Hire more female professors.” — focusing on student performance in ‘hard’ sciences at the United States Air Force Academy. Short version: both genders perform better if their instructor is of the same gender…but women were more positively influenced by women instructors at the male-dominated academy.
On a broader level…I’m not sure how much attention we should focus on equality of outcome (ie, equal enrollment, graduation, and placement in the job market) vs equality of opportunity. There is slippery slope here, that ends with smart people having to wear attention-shattering noisy headsets to offset their advantages. That’s a fix that’s worse than the original problem.
But I am concerned about the downward trend of male higher education. I think, however, that it is one of a multitude of issues – women are still stalked and raped, poorer men and women still have less opportunity for higher ed than the childern of the wealthy, and the end goal of education is arguably overly-focused on self-satisfaction and material gain than the common good. I think that in tackling these issues, we need to be careful to avoid unforseen negative outcomes – cutting off our nose to spite our faces.
This is an area where, just maybe, our dispariate local school districts will be an advantage – we have space (if not time) to attempt different approaches. Are there districts that are consistently graduating more male college students than the average? What are they doing?
Comment by Kerani — 7 July 2009 @ 7:15 pm
FM note: Great comment. I strongly recommend reading Prof Baumeister’s speech in full! Thanks to altoids for posting it.
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There is a excellent, if slightly over-ambitious, lecture on biological differences between the sexes that may help shed light on this discussion: “Is There Anything Good About Men?“, Roy F. Baumeister (Professor of Psychology at Florida State U), 2007 meeting of the American Psychological Association. Opening:
If you accept his thesis that, historically, men gravitate to high-risk, high-reward tasks, and women are used for low-risk, constant-reward tasks, then the American economy will, as a whole, become less entrepreneurial, and less dynamic.
As FM tirelessly points out, the university functions less as an education and more as a social marker and class filter. The university serves as a gateway to high-prestige, high-income professions. Due to the enormous importance of the university, middle- and upper-class parents push their children to configure their lives in a manner optimal for college acceptance. There are well-defined benchmarks, and well-defined goals, and well-defined rewards. Study hard, and you will be a rich doctor someday.
In general, young girls are more receptive to this proposition than young boys. Having just very recently graduated from university, I can tell you that career-minded women overwhelmingly gravitate to professional fields such as law and medicine, professions that are rigidly structured, with definite career paths.
The same is not true for men. While most men are unimaginative, there are a sub-set of men who are born risk-takers, born entrepreneurs. And it is these men (and a rare few women), who are responsible for most of the wealth in this country.
This leads to several implications:
1. The US economy will become less flexible. There will be less creative destruction. A company staffed with people who want low-risk, constant-reward will not bet-the-farm on a innovative new product.
2. The vast majority of company founders and CEOs will continue to be male. For every success story, there are a thousand failures. It will be mostly men who take that risk.
3. Growth in regulation and government rent-seeking. The status-quo is always threatened by change. Those who have sacrificed so much to reach the pinnacle of there chosen professions will be loath to see their status threatened (see: professional journalists). They will erect barriers-to-entry, and extract government guarantees. The most perfect example of this is public-school-teacher unions.
Comment by altoids — 7 July 2009 @ 8:39 pm
I wonder how much having a single mother affects a boy’s academic performance. That cohort has a pronounced non-academic tendency, that of joining the prison population.
Comment by Claude Hopper — 7 July 2009 @ 9:06 pm
I think the reason is that the system is favoring certain personality types . People – persons tend to comply , so if entering an exam means submitting a verbose portfolio , providing 6 photoidentities and grandmothers blood group , they do it . Faced with a computor-marked , multiple choice question , none of the choices being an unequivocal right answer , they are happy to pick the one they think the examiner wants . Reading that interviewers are interested in their extra curricular activities , they put without a twinge , that they were keen members of the Sea Scouts and play the Oboe to Grade 6 , when they have actually seen a movie about a boat and once picked up a recorder .
Action-persons read the rationalised standards for the modules for the cuuiculum requirements index to the portfolio , and are possessed by an overwhelming urge to throw bricks through windows instead.
Comment by anna nicholas — 7 July 2009 @ 10:03 pm
Career women tend to have few if any children. Women of the west in pursuit of careers will work hard through their child-bearing years, then discover they have waited too late. Very low fertility rates among college educated women points to a future where hospital maternity wards see only poor and uneducated women.
If children are only born of the poor, the uneducated, the state-dependent women, what will be the perspective of the next generation, and the next? Will they want to work hard to pay extortionate tax rates to pay your entitlements — your social security, your medicare, your national health care. Not likely.
Among many ethnic minorities, the rate of illegitimate birth exceeds 50%. In US blacks, the rate is near 70%. Do you wonder whether crime rates, drug addiction rates, HIV and STD rates, are related in some way to illegitimacy rates?
No, don’t speak about the heritability of intelligence, or the potentially dysgenic effect of “progressive” immigration and entitlement programs. That wouldn’t be politically correct, not at all.
Comment by Democritus — 7 July 2009 @ 11:02 pm
Matriarchy never lasts. See: Human history.
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Fabius Maximus replies: Has there ever been a real matriarchy? Of course, modern tech — esp contraceptives — make it possible now. In theory, at least.
Comment by Dat_Truth_Hurts — 7 July 2009 @ 11:07 pm
[...] Women dominating the ranks of college graduates – What’s the effect on America? This will be one of the greatest social science experiments ever conducted. After WWII nations tested free markets [...] [...]
Pingback by Top Posts « WordPress.com — 8 July 2009 @ 12:13 am
FM: Nonsense from another person unwilling to look at that data. From reading this you would never know that the source I mentioned was the US government’s Bureau of Labor Statistics.
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Flat-earther indeed. Listen FM, someone is trying to tell you something from the real world, not some cooked government statistics. Goodness, the Soviets used to do the same thing with their gender statistics. That worked out really well didn’t it. And I really could care less “what kind of a site” this is. What supercilious and sanctimonious blather. Go play in your fantasy world. It is obviously not a site for anyone that has to accomplish something in the real world. I could care less what you think, but when America’s leadership comes crashing down in part because of the poor resource allocation of education dollars and the lowering of standards to accomodate this PC nonsense don’t say that you were not warned. You must be an academic, not someone that actually creates wealth and is held accountable for what they create in the marketplace. In the hard sciences and real engineering outside of academia, the vast majority those woman end up cratering. Ten years later they are off the ranch. It is a dirty little secret that no one wants to admit, and it is cleverly buried in these bogus statistics. I am talking about the high end, I am not talking about the mediocre level, if you can possibly understand that. Go have a look at who is producing what, go look at patents, go look at useful science output. It is just a joke. But plod along in your smug obtuseness. See if the world cares.
Comment by hattip — 8 July 2009 @ 1:41 am
Well, what can people expect? They dumbed down the American Male.
Comment by themadjewess — 8 July 2009 @ 1:59 am
There has already been a sea-change that I observe at work, in a highly technical company with global operations. In the US sites we have to import skilled labor (Ph.D. level) through the H1-B Visa program. Predominately they are male, either Indian or Chinese. There are very few Americans as exceptions to the rule. The overall ratio of men to women hired is approximately 10:1.
The net result is social stereotyping, and, a slightly veiled attitude that Americans are dumb. I disagree, but I would like to know where all the smart Americans are going so I can hire some of them. The thread of comments suggests that the smart Americans are being filtered out by the education system. But I include men and women in that category. Thus, as a whole the country suffers from loss of competitive ability.
Let me say it another way. Regardless of the sex ratio at the institutions of higher learning (filters),the quality of their product and the quantity of their product for the highly technical fields is in decline. Perhaps the change in sex ratio is a factor in this decline, I’m sure there are others.
Working in a global company I get to observe the quality of Ph.D.’s produced overseas and working overseas in their home countries (the ratio of men to women in these jobs is extremely high). I’m generally underwhelmed by the talent level there; but at least there is not a shortage. The really good ones we steal for the US. Eventually that practice must end as the rest of the world becomes more lucrative for these people. That is when we will really feel the pain of competition.
Comment by colderwater — 8 July 2009 @ 2:25 am
As I understand it, you want likely results of a female-dominated system. Caveat: We’re already there.
1. Less risk, more stability seeking. This results in less grand scale thefts, and more petty corruption. Both are destabilizing to the system as a whole. I’ll call it a wash.
2. With China aborting its women, a lot of American high status (I don’t say high achieving) women will marry Chinese jetsetters (the uber alphas of the Chinese nation). This will be similar to the Brit nobles marrying American rich business related types from decades back.
3. A subset of Women will be irritated by not having enough marry up men to go around. Many of these won’t have enough self-knowledge to realize how they helped cause the problem, and will instead follow the Feminist path of ‘Men Baaaaad!!!’. A lot of bitter spinsters.
At one time, guys went around to houses, talked to housewives, and sharpened their scissors. Look for a rebirth of male service to women jobs where the older spinsters can hire some reasonably charming male to do some small task for her. The guy will be a Guy, but also not all that ambitious, and a lot of guys would be okay with that. This will ease some of the bitter spinsterness.
4. Computers are changing so fast some say we race to the Singularity. People all over are weary from the headlong pace. Women in charge will be more weary, and less enthused about the big risks. PC Revolution slows down dramatically, and a lot of people are happy.
5. Read Proverbs 31, the Prudent Woman, the lady works very hard, and has a lot of responsibility and power. Her husband sits in the gates. This is not quite the ‘layabout’ it sounds, I’ve heard. Sitting in the gates was where the elders met to handle politics. A rebirth of male only areas with substantial influence credited to them. This may be more pose than actuality, but it might become serious.
6. A rise in Polygamy. The top players are always going to be guys, unless sexist barriers are created. Some women, given the choice between hanging out with a guy of lesser status, and being Wife #2 either by law or in effect are going to choose option #2. The rich and powerful guys will love this. The guys without women will….be truly and deeply irritated to a level that might destabilize the whole system. The women will be unhappy as per the Chinese symbol for ‘chaos??’ is two women under one roof.
A lot of unhappy people, but the decision makers will be happy. I reccomend reading “Men and Marriage” by George Gilder. It is a lightbulb book, and most helpful to this subject.
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Fabius Maximus replies: All thought-provoking ideas! I too recommend reading Gilder’s “Men and Marriage.”
Comment by Eric R. Ashley — 8 July 2009 @ 2:29 am
The rising civilization is Muslim, the Somalians are the best example. They are fast breeders and taking over neighborhoods all over Europe. The only reason a matriarchy might arise is because European men are either weak, don’t care, or are so stupid they really believe in this equality nonsense.
The Taliban, Iranians, and Somalians will steamroll over any matriarchy. What man would risk his life to defend it? European armies are filled with funny boys that do not reproduce. The barbarians are at the gates, this is Rome in 400 AD.
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Fabius Maximus replies: I too have wondered about this. Perhaps feminism is a self-correcting oddity, from a sociobiological perspective. No matter how fine, how just, low fertility levels might make it a dead-end — replaced by systems less just (by our standards) encouraging higher fertility levels.
Comment by Tibby — 8 July 2009 @ 3:40 am
A uniquely male archetype is the “Brooding Genius”. Women excel at multitasking, and are capable of sustained effort even when directed to the mundane, but when you have a really tough intellectual nut to crack, nothing beats a BG. Socially inept, sometimes almost wooden in demeanor, these guys are quickly identified, and often exploited by lugubrious management types. For this reason, BG’s often go it alone, starting their own projects, and largely carrying them on their backs, periodically coughing up AC induction machines (Tesla), Polio vaccines, (Sabin), and Relativity (Einstein). Trust me, you don’t want to live in a world devoid of BG’s. Whatever we do in organizing our society, make sure you provide for the care and feeding of these.
Comment by bc — 8 July 2009 @ 4:24 am
First off Fabius, women are not, if I’m reading the BLS correctly, entering into mechanical engineering, computer programming, electrical engineering, chemical engineering, and other types of jobs considered “nerdy” and filled with “icky” guys who are smart but lack social power and prestige. It’s mostly medicine and other related fields which have relatively high levels of prestige.
Secondly, the effect is going to be a soft polygamy, with women being hypergamous, unwilling to date/marry downwards with men who are not higher than themselves. This means a few men get most of the women, and most men get none (the usual state of affairs in human history). This also implies a huge distrust between men (fights over women) and lots and lots of violence, that being the great equalizer in power and status. Ask any low level drug dealer making less than a McDonald’s fry cook but deciding who lives and dies.
As women dominate law, health care, and other “transfer” rather than productive places (energy and resource extraction, agriculture, and manufacturing) the temptation to favor that over actual wealth producing things and activities grows greater. Already Obama’s Welfare Economy has 80% of layoffs men, and most of the stimulus spending has been for female-oriented social workers and the like. Very little shovels and dirt and concrete.
Family will simply disintegrate, as women become single mothers, with a few (genetic bottleneck) men reproducing as is common, and most men are utterly unconnected to the interests or welfare of women and other men’s children. You’ll see far greater predatory behavior, as there is little reason for men to value women as anything but prey items. Children too. This will not be a light-switch process but rather a steadily accelerating one. As more taboos get broken, the process intensifies. You’ll have the sort of processes like in the Taipeng Rebellion. No one believed the leader was the Younger Brother of Jesus, or later Jesus himself. They just figured he’d overthrow the emperor and they’d get women and gold. Killed 20 million people with muzzle loading muskets in the 1850’s.
Of course single motherhood produces bad outcomes, boys in jail and girls pregnant in their teens, even accounting for income and status and race.
The solution to all of this is simply to end AA now. Permanently. In all areas, and eliminate the wealth transference by dumping most of the legal infrastructure, social work, and other things that suck up female employment in non-productive work that has little bearing on social good (as opposed to teaching and health care which most definitely IS a social good). Also as noted, put more men in the classroom. Particularly ex-soldiers and marines. Gear instruction to gender differences, and have different expectations (i.e. boys lagging physically). Look at Molly Ringwald and Anthony Michael Hall. Both the same approximate age. Ringwald was far more physically developed than Hall. Boys need more time, critically, at all phases, because they mature slower.
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Fabius Maximus replies: You are misinterpreting the BLS data. The number of women entering engineering is rapidly increasing, but off a tiny base. This follows the patter of women entering other “male” fields — from small acorns do giant oaks grow. In this case, women oaks.
Comment by whiskey — 8 July 2009 @ 7:46 am
The second post in this series is up: A better answer to “why women outperform men in college?”
Comment by Fabius Maximus — 8 July 2009 @ 1:54 pm
FM: “ Has there ever been a real matriarchy?”
Yes. They are generally pre-industrial and stay that way (until they get conquered and subjugated by a patriarchal or meritocratic society, at least.)
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Fabius Maximus replies: Do you have any citations to support this? From Wikipedia, which matches my (limited) understanding of history:
Comment by Phelps — 8 July 2009 @ 8:54 pm
There is a distinct difference between the average male brain and the average female brain which limits the number of women who can perform in math-intensive fields such as engineering, high level computer science, physics, and so forth. Roughly 25% women, no more. “SEX DIFFERENCES IN MATHEMATICAL APTITUDE“. If you go higher than that you will have to force unwilling and unqualified women to do the jobs, with very unsatisfactory results.
Or you can pretend that qualifications are less important than job results, like a number of fire and police departments have done in their promotions. You might not wish to live in those cities, however.
The US can import its math savvy males from India and China for now. After a few years of Obama, the US economy will not be able to support those imports, and the math dependent corporations and labs will have to move to a more developed country than the US.
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Fabius Maximus replies: That is one theory, and a contraversial one. It is not proven. To cite just one of the many studies about this: “Sex, Math and Scientific Achievement“, Scientific American, December 2007 –Excerpt:
Who knows what will be the ratio in 2025? Esp as now girls are taking more advanced math courses than boys (source).
Comment by Maghrebi — 9 July 2009 @ 12:38 am
Re soaring numbers of gilrs in math courses: Is this a result of dumbed-down courses – is the level in 2005 the same as in 1980 – or a result of better performance of the female students?
If I check competitive environments in (German and Austrian) high schools like national and international math olypiades etc. I do not see a significant number of girls, the same for chemistry and physics.
Another good indicator would be to check the number and impact of scientific publications. Do the female students produce the same out-put as male students during their PhD work and as post-docs ?
Comment by Ulenspiegel — 9 July 2009 @ 6:37 am
I’m surprised no one has mentioned the obvious.
Men do the physical labor and risky labor of society, and women don’t. Men are the farmers, miners, truckers, railroaders, construction workers, plumbers, electricians, carpenters, iron workers, masons, mechanics, roofers, longshoreman, operating engineers, soliders, laborers, window washers, fire fighters, policemen, janitors, garbage collectors, bus drivers, and painters, and in a ratio of probably 100 to 1 cumulatively.
Since women don’t do physical labor jobs, and men do, when women entered the labor force en masse from 1970 onwards, the only options for them were the same old low level jobs they had always held sway over (education, nursing, secretarial work), or to go to college and try to enter the professions or business world.
Their eventual domination of college as it is a gateway to business and professional work had to be expected so long as they totally avoid manual labor positions. It will be this way either until women enter into manual labor jobs or return to homemaking.
Comment by Andrew — 9 July 2009 @ 7:01 am
@Andrew
Your arguments do not work, most of your listed jobs are already done by woman (at least in Europe) with increasing numbers. Here again, better perfomance/better grades of females in the highschool helps them to get the jobs. Only very few professions for which “raw” physical power is still needed (woodchopper) are still domains for men.
Comment by Ulenspiegel — 9 July 2009 @ 12:33 pm
No worries: once the coming calamities are upon us, the fundamental need and value of men will quickly re-emerge.
Comment by Jimbo — 9 July 2009 @ 5:31 pm
FM: “All professional and technical jobs will not drop in status and income, so that jobs like garbage collection and highway repair become the most desirable jobs in America.”
Nominal income or net income after the payments on your sould crushing burden of student debt required to get those professional jobs? When I graduated with an engineering degree I took a lower starting salary than assembly line workers at GM. Scholarships and generous parents meant I had no debt to service, otherwise garbageman would have rated serious consideration.
@ the larger topic, I suspect the already fraying link between a degree and social status will sever long before the increase in degreed females will lead to matriarchy.
Comment by Pode — 9 July 2009 @ 6:17 pm
I believe “It’s the classes …Stupid”
I am an old guy. My high School had metal and wood shop. We had “horrifically dangerous” cutting tools available to us as teenagers, access to white hot metal forges where we heated up real metal and used hammers to shape the metal until its dull red color faded. I personally liked the electronics class where we could occasionally make sparks fly with high voltage while constructing a radio by hand.
Male interests are too dangerous for female sensibilities. Therefore they are removed from education and replaced for something more…feminine.
Young men are pussy whipped. If you are a male and that offends you look in the mirror, you are whipped yourself. Females know this. Today’s males are screwed up trying to be males when everything around them has been feminized through most of their schooling. On top of that men/boys are going through puberty and are half crazy driven by hormones and will accommodate almost anything to be close to a girl.
Why would a male want to go to a college where feminine studies and other silly things are taught?
Perhaps it is about time to open up the college of male conquest. We could teach how men established all the countries in the world we see today. Remind them that they are really the power in their countries and the world if they would just take charge. Instruct males how to manipulate women to do the tasks we need them to do. Instruct them that politics, and diplomacy are the slow, uncertain ways to change so why wait for them when we live a shorter life? Especially if we have to listen to female politicians!
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Fabuis Maximus replies: I disagree with much of this. Test your theory! Go to your nearest inner city, find a group of guys, and tell them that they’re pussy whipped. After your discharge from the hospital, report back to us.
US culture has to a large extent migrated from inner cities to the mainstream. Clearly so in dress and music, but also more broadly. Inner cities have macho men almost totally allientated from families, which are strongly matriarchial. I suspect that is increasingly so in the wider American culture.
There are other adaptations to the changing role of women in our society. To see this in pure form I suggest listening to the Tom Leykis show (see his website for info).
Comment by K Watson — 9 July 2009 @ 10:56 pm
Ulenspiegel in comment #56 -
You are falling victim to distorted statistics where a woman working in a clerical job or supervisory job for a manual labor concern is counted by the government as working in the goods producing industries (construction, mining, farming, transportation, heavy manufacturing).
Go out on a construction site or visit a train yard or repair garage or truck stop or firehouse or waste transfer station and count the number of women you see doing the manual labor. Its close to zero, even in Europe.
In the US women dominate Government work (10M of 22.5M), Education and Health Services (15M of 19M), Finance and Insurance (3.75M of6M), Other Services (2.9M of 5.5M), and Leisure Services (7M of 13.3M), are even in Retail Trade (7.5M of 15M), Real Estate (950K of 2M),
Comment by Andrew — 10 July 2009 @ 2:11 am
@Andrew
The number of women is still much lower than of men, but this changes. In contrast, do men get the same share in typical women jobs?
Last year, when my house was build, I had a female construction worker, some of the quality control on the site was done by a lady, who really know her trade and it was not arrogance when she told the famale workers: “Gents, get used to a higher standard, they will be mandatory in a few years!” :-))
Almost every day I see in the tramway (young) female painter, bricklayer and welder. And in car workshops femals are found in increasing numbers. Employers are intersted in a minimum educational level for these jobs, and here boys stink more than girls.
And you could check the distributen in the former socialistic countries (take East Germany), they were far ahead with women in typical men jobs, women lost ground after the reunification in the eastern federal states, but were much more flexible and “emigrated” to western states and got good jobs.
Backbone of the German (and Austrian) economy are medium-sized companies (50-5000 employees), they need well trained/educated worker, so women with higher motivation have a really good chance to get a much larger share in future in jobs that produce national wealth.
Comment by Ulenspiegel — 10 July 2009 @ 5:29 am
you can’t fool Mother Nature
We know that male attributes have a much wider variance than female attributes. There are many more men at the highest level of IQ, ability for spatial perception, aggression, competitiveness, ability to concieve of and create complex systems, desire to take risk, desire for high achievement, desire to dominante others and the environment etc., there are also more men at the bottom, BUT those who rule come from the high end not the low end. All of these impulses are biologically based even if they may be increased by social conditioning. Would women lock themselves in a room for a month and compose the “Messiah”, or spend a tortured night on the beach discovering what we call Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle or sail into the dangerous and unknown Atlantic Ocean to discover a new world, or venture to the moon ,so on and so on?????
Of course not, Mother Nature wouldn’t stand for it for obvious reason(survival of the species). Brain research over the last 30 years has begun to show how the male and female brain differ and why men have always played the role of creator and destroyer.
Although deep down in our genes men create the material culture to make themselves more desirerable to women, i.e., men compete, women choose.
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Fabius Maximus replies: These are nothing more than statements about biology, facts about the past due to social structures, and fancy guesses about the future. Most such guesses about the future prove to be wrong, for fairly obvious reasons. One rule of nature I know is true: Mother Nature does not give a damn about our theories or hopes.
Comment by Arthur — 13 July 2009 @ 1:39 am
Is this good for the American economy?
I can’t help noticing that the economies of more paternal developing countries have picked up considerably (India, China) and the only Western countries that have maintained their status are again more paternalistic – Germany and Switzerland.
In the meantime the two leading countries in terms of the rise of female emancipation (UK and US) are now basket cases with offshored industries, ‘feminized’ service industries that have nothing to service and huge massive debts that have been building up since the rise of feminism in the 70’s. They are doomed.
Serveys have shown that up to 90% of women with kids do not want to work over 40 hours a week and only do so grudgingly. My wife has NO interest in going to work while the kids are home.
MY REAL POINT IS THIS: Therefore any country that is determined to allocate 60% of education resources on the half of the population that would rather work part-time (by their own admission) is heading for trouble – no wonder the US is $12 trillion in debt.
Comment by JC — 23 August 2009 @ 1:01 am
No fair! Everyone is getting dominated except ME! :P
Comment by Mikyo — 1 October 2009 @ 9:37 am
[...] few months ago Fabius Maximus wrote a couple of posts describing the changing roles of men and women in American society. While many people [...]
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